I'm doing something different today. If its sufficient formally for all doctrine it must be able to on the face of it tell us what it means. Do I Need to Know Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Repeatedly in their sermons and their writings they said, “If either of these two principles can be shown to be erroneous then even though we have been driven by what we believe in sincerity, and in an honest desire to reform the Church and to proclaim the Gospel, then all of what we are doing is a revolutionary movement absolutely elicit and illegitimate in the eyes of God, and we should recant, we should retract, we should repent and we should recognize that though we thought we were fighting error, in fact we ourselves have been guilty in spreading the most pernicious error imaginable.”. Subtitles 5:13 (Closed Caption)September 28, 1993, Bayview Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Chula Vista, CaliforniaYes, this is that debate you've been hearing . Newman said that if this verse proves the sufficiency of Scripture, it proves too much, for Paul is talking here only of the Old Testament, which would leave the New Testament as an unnecessary addition. That means handing on. Home If our debate this evening was that I was going to stand here and say that this is the only pen of its kind in all the universe, how would I go about proving it? As low as $30/day. White: I have the 27 books in my Bible because the Holy Spirit of God inspired them long before there was ever a man in Rome who called himself the Vicar of Christ. I will resist the temptation to bury Mr. White under a mountain of quotations from the Church Fathers, proving they did not teach sola scriptura. In John 21:25 we read that if everything that Jesus said or did had been recorded that the world itself would not be large enough to contain the books that would be written, but it does not have to be exhaustive, either, to be the rule of faith for the Church. He talks about the Catholics being divided. Essentially a person like James White or other apologists for Sola Scriptura will say, "Your own guy Athanasius says 'The sacred, inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth.' He says, “You must listen to what they say for they sit in Moses’ seat.” Paul believed in the tradition of the rock that followed the Jews in the wilderness, a tradition not found in the Old Testament and yet he accepts it as normative and true in I Corinthians 10:4. Look back at 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 14 as well as 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. When Mr. Matatics and I debated in Phoenix in December, 1990, I asked Mr. Matatics about Mr. Lewis, who is a Feeneyite, who does not believe that anyone outside the Roman Catholic Church can possibly be saved, and at that time I was just informed, well, he’s a Feeneyite and their sort of off and on the fringe. Then we moved into a response to James Fox Higgins on the subject of sola scriptura, its definition and defense (really important). James shows how the early … The Christian Church looks … But if you reject the Catholic Church you have to furnish us with some other source upon which you base your testimony that those words in that Bible—in that 27 books of the Bible—are God’s words. Tradition doesn’t say anything about the conception of Mary and then a couple of years later well, now tradition does say something about the conception of Mary. Madrid: This is how I know, Mr. White. He was seeing a meaning in II Timothy 3:17 that’s not there. The first instance poses little difficulty. And I have to bring that up because there, unfortunately, are many Roman Catholics today who deny the inerrancy of Scripture and the full inspiration of Scripture, just as there have been liberal Protestants who have done the same thing. I couldn’t prove it. What does that say? It once for all delivered and that’s it. . And so if Mr. Madrid would like to say that you can have another ultimate authority, you can have these other elements of authority, the teaching Magisterium, the oral tradition, then Mr. Madrid is going to have to prove that these oral traditions are qeovpneustos” or they cannot function along with God-breathed Scripture. But I still want you to accept it along with.” And in point of fact, when you get right down to interpreting this book, you’re going to have to subjugate this book under tradition. You’d be all over the road. But Paul said in II Thessalonians 2:15, “Stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you have been given.” Now I want to address that, because I that’s where Mr. White really failed. Obviously I’ve prepared for this one by looking at the things that he wrote and hearing the things that he says, and very often he’ll come back with the thing, “Well, I don’t need to know if Matthew wrote Matthew. He claims that Scripture is sufficient. means, he’s provided us with none of that. Well that means that Scripture is perspicuous (slapping hands together), that you can look at it and see what it means. Now you can show the Catholic world how you arrive at this infallible certitude about Scripture using something outside of Scripture to get to it. Conclusion: There is no way of telling which books are inspired. Alpha & Omega Ministries. It was not my job tonight to provide a complete demonstration of apostolic succession or oral tradition but simply to find fault with the Protestant principle of sola scriptura. Found insideKarl Keating defends Catholicism from fundamentalist attacks and explains why fundamentalism has been so successful in converting "Romanists". This is not some oral tradition that exists separately from the New Testament at all. I would simply say, that again the burden of proof is on you to show that if you’re going to accuse the Catholic Church of teaching unbiblical doctrines that you need to show them the Bible verse which refutes them and then show that your interpretation of the Bible verse is, in fact, the correct one, which again, if you’re a fallible person of a fallible denomination, I would think that you’d have to be at least theoretically open to the possibility that you are misinterpreting that verse. To find in someone of Mr. Vincent Lewis, of his virtues, an able and worthy articulator of Catholic faith, I think he is a very well-read and a very intelligent and a very effective apologist for the Catholic faith. Well you know its interesting, we could with much profit point out that Mr. Madrid’s argument is completely circular, and in fact I will do that in just a moment. I’d be more than happy, in some future point, to demonstrate, in a different debate, how the early Church Fathers viewed Revelation 12. We could certainly discuss that further and we couldn’t obviously do that within the time we have allotted to us tonight. It once for all delivered and that’s it. Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself. There is a very real possibility, and Mr. White and I would both agree, that the history of the Church is littered with the spiritual carcasses of those who have thought the Word of God was on their side, when, in fact, it was not. All of these things together make up the Word of God. Except in Phoenix all of our buildings have air conditioners. In fact, I think that he’s going to drive smack-dab into a brick wall at this point, and that brick wall is the canon of Scripture. Secondly, it is not a denial of the Church’s authority to teach. Second Question from James White to Patrick Madrid: White: Mr. Madrid, I’ve asked you this before. I think you do so at your own peril. White: First of all, in sticking to the actual question that I asked, we are told that the Old Testament Church told the man that Isaiah and 2 Chronicles were Scripture. Phoenix, AZ 85069 I can look independent of what I see in Scripture. The major thrust of your debate was to appeal to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in order to prove ‘sola scriptura’ (Opening Statement, Paragraphs 27-36). Of course, it is the Catholic contention that Christ did not reject the Corban rule but the Scribes ABUSE of it. Tonight, we can only cover the peaks and valleys in this debate. Well wait a minute, wait a minute. Trace it through history. Do as those many quotations I have provided to you demonstrate. . In the very next paragraph, you make the same error again when you ask, “what does it mean to say that one is ‘fully equipped’, if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?” Well, consider this alternative. Does that not mean then, that they are sufficient as equippers for their task? I do so, primarily out of the motive of love. the Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Pilate, Acts of Paul and Thecla and 50 other ‘Acts’ as well as a small number of Epistles and Apocalypses.) I'm doing something different today. And an argument that you use that, when turned on your own position, destroys your own position, is not a valid argument. Some people will use it correctly, others won’t. There are many other things I’d like to say. No one ever did it. As usual Mr. White leaves out… For example, John O’Brien, author of the popular work The Faith of Millions, wrote in a pamphlet entitled Finding Christ’s Church, “Great as is our reverence for the Bible, reason and experience compel us to say that it alone is not a competent nor a safe guide as to what we are to believe.” That is certainly not what I believe to be the faith of the Church historically or in any other way. And Mr. White’s position, you have to remember, is, he wants to have it both ways. They are brothers, in that extended sense. That I am sufficient to equip them for the task at hand. [It does not say, for instance, that infant baptism (as held by Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians) is the correct interpretation.]. The authority of the Church, then in teaching, and rebuking, and instructing, is derived, despite Roman Catholic claims to the contrary, from Scripture itself.”. The uniqueness of this pen has been shown to be false. Ephesians 2:19-20, 1 Thessalonians 4:2, 2 Peter 3:2), and He warned all of His followers of the consequences of private teaching OUTSIDE of the Church (Cf. You’re saying, and I’ve heard you say it many times in debates with Gerry Matatics and in other things that you’ve done, that the Catholic position is simply wrong. What is this oral tradition? Now, in our remaining moments, let’s examine some key Scripture passages that are frequently brought up. I would like to say, however, that if we’re into offering debate challenges, we have made an open and public debate challenge to Karl Keating and Patrick Madrid of Catholic Answers–in fact, you were in the office, Gerry, when we made it–that has been turned down consistently, the most recent one, to debate the subject of the papacy prior to the coming of the pope to Denver in August of next year. You may have to say, “Well, that’s what God commanded them to do,” because to make the parallel stick, that’s what you’re going to have to do. I really do like Mr. White very much, I honestly do, and I hope that in some sense, maybe it’s slightly schizophrenic, that we can be friends. This has been replaced, if that’s what happens. I’m inviting you to consider, to study, to pray about the Catholic position. The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail. At the end of His life, the provision that Jesus makes for the continuation of His Word is to ordain and to send forth ambassadors, emissaries, whom we call Apostles, “sent ones.” And he tells them to go forth and preach. Now, we then went back to this ultimate authority issue, and Pat said, “Well OK, let’s use a different analogy. Therefore, just as one quality ALONE of a soccer player does not make him complete, nor does Scripture ALONE make a man complete. It is a spoken word that comes to Adam, it is a spoken word that comes to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph. If you’re going to claim that it’s infallible then you have got to allow the very few examples of its even existence to be examined and when we examine them we find them to be contradictory with one another. James R White Scripture Alone Exploring The Bibles Accuracy Authority And Authenticity James R White Yeah, reviewing a ebook scripture alone exploring the bibles . That’s just simply untrue. He does not deny that. They had no idea of that doctrine, and yet Paul says that these traditions were already delivered. And I defy Mr. White to come up with an example of the one who does. The tradition that is there is what? If the Catholic Church defines the verse, you have no question or basis on which to question their tradition or their interpretation because you believe they are infallible. And I promised Mr. Lewis that I would say something and that’s why I have to take the time now, although its robbing me of the time I want to share, I promised him that I would publicly renew the challenge to Mr. White to respond. These are many examples of Jesus and the Apostles practicing what Catholics practice, that oral tradition can provide a normative transmission of truths that we should incorporate into our system of belief even though they are not contained in the canonical written group of Scriptures. Not on canon issues, not on how the Church recognizes inspiration. . Premise 2: Therefore, in order to know the truth, there must be true or accurate interpretations of the Scriptures. 1. Instead, He launches a counterattack against these leaders by pointing out how they nullify the command of God through the following of their own traditions. And so, all of those quotes–and if you listen to them very carefully as I did, and if you didn’t, then I would encourage you to ask Mr. White to let you look at them again during the break or to tell you where they are so you could get them yourself and read them carefully–all of them are agreeing to meet the heretics on their own terms. ©2021 Alpha and Omega Ministries. I want to share with you a debate between Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid and Protestant apologist James White on the topic of Sola Scriptura. For example, we find this concept plainly enunciated in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ when coming into conflict with the traditions of the Jewish leaders. I did deal with it, and as he is fond of saying, roll the tapes back for yourself and look at what I said and look at how I showed that he was misapplying the meaning. That’s what I want from you, sometime tonight. But I see that you have the same problem. Revelation, chapter 12, Mr. White. That’s like a dog chasing its tail. Here you have Jesus saying, basically overturning the requirements of the Word of God. I want Mr. White to tell us why James 1:4 cannot be interpreted, under his principle, to mean that perseverance in good works, and perseverance under persecution, which is what James is talking about, why that doesn’t mean sufficiency. And if you try to engage in a discussion, for example, of Matthew 16:18, with a Roman Catholic you find out very quickly how very much oral tradition not only influences but determines the interpretation of this. He will teach what his position is over against what other Protestant ministers say with equally good credentials say, who are also going to the Word of God. I'm doing something different today. I don’t want to see it undermined. For the Roman Catholic to use this passage to support his position, two things must be established. Why would he do that? It was not read in your hearing but I’ll read it for you. Jesus said in Matthew 7:15, “Beware of false prophets who will come to you in sheep’s clothing but, underneath, they are ravenous wolves.” Error comes packaged under the wrapping paper of Bible verses. . Whether or not, therefore, the political policy that should be taken in a Catholic nation towards the repression of a people by physical means is an infallible dogma or not would seem to me quite unlikely. And that early Church gives us the New Testament. Thus you nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition.”. Well, first of all, let me stress the areas of agreement between Mr. White and myself, the areas in which there are at least formal agreement between our positions. This is a single body of traditions that is taught in two ways–orally, that is when Paul was personally with the Thessalonians and he preached to them, and by Epistles, that being the first letter to the Thessalonians. So they search to find verses which they can cobble together in an attempt to refute a given Catholic teaching. Once it’s been defined by the Church, and that’s the only way you can find out what it is is once the Church says. Well because the Scripture. So, please understand, I mean in no way to be rude or attack anyone. “I must not press the authority of Nicaea against you, nor you that of Arminum against me. I think that would have been much clearer than inserting ‘oral tradition’, don’t you? And so the question you ask me is a question that again begs the issue. Or must we have other revelation from God? And that assumption must be addressed. Who here is alleging the necessity of some separate source of information? The other one denies that, based on what Scripture says. He can’t come forth. 877-753-3341 (US Callers Only). Without an infallible authority you can’t know what the canon is.” And of course I would say, “Well how do you know it’s an infallible authority to begin with?” because we get on this long, big circle that goes around and around and around and never actually answers the question. This is the second post on sola scriptura. Paul accepts the tradition concerning the sorcerers in Egypt’s Pharaoh’s’ Court, Jannes and Jambres, which he refers to in II Timothy 3:5, although the Old Testament does not give him their names. Well, I ‘d like to refer you to a passage. They did not utilize the standards Mr. Madrid does. But our faith is right and starts from the teaching of the Apostles and tradition of the fathers, being confirmed both by the New Testament and the Old. [Madrid interrupts: No argument, no argument.] Conclusion: Although infallibility is not required to prove canonicity, legitimate authority is. Gerry Matatics. Know Exactly What Scripture Means In his first book for Our Sunday Visitor, noted Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid helps you: Be absolutely certain your interpretation of Scripture is accurate Discover how the simple sentence "I never said ... Oral tradition is capable of transmitting something without inscripturation. We believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, in that sense, to bring someone to faith in Christ. No Protestant would accept that hermeneutic principle. Oral tradition must be inspired in exactly the same way as the Scriptures for it to function as Rome has claimed. He uses those same Scriptures and he defines the apostolic tradition by the words of Scripture. I am willing to swear before Him and before His holy angels that if I am shown to be wrong in my adherence to the Catholic position or to the Catholic faith as a whole, that I am willing to publicly admit that I am wrong, to recant and, if Mr. White can demonstrate that his faith is the correct one, then I am willing to embrace it, and to convert once again to the Protestant faith. Now, Mr. Madrid you don’t have the authority to overthrow the meaning of those terms, no matter how much you may wish to do so. Sproul, John Armstrong, John MacArthur, Sinclair Ferguson, Joel Beeke, Ray Lanning. Gerry Matatics Starts. Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task? When the quotations are flying, it’s tough to keep track of all of this, and I hope that you will bear with both of us. We’re not denying that Scripture is part of the tradition that the Church handed on. I will close my presentation by reading from the early Church Father, Tertullian, who addressed this very passage when refuting those false teachers of his day who claimed that the Apostles had two different teachings, one which was open and known to all and a second, secret doctrine known only to a few. Those are the issues this evening, folks. There let us discuss our case in the Scriptures.” He says, also, “Let those things be removed from our midst which we quote against each other, not from divine, canonical books but from elsewhere. Now, how would be go about looking at this subject? James White cited St. The Word of God is the only one but there is nothing in Scripture which equates the phrase, “Word of God” with Scripture alone and that is what the issue is all about. I would liken Mr. Lewis to Jack Chick, Alberto Rivera and Peter Ruckman in ability and I simply have not felt that it would be a proper thing to engage such an individual in a food fight in public which is what his tapes demonstrate he is all about. We need to keep these things straight because there are some people who seem to think that the church has the power to create canon and of course it does not. To be more specific, I provide the following definition: The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith for the Christian Church. P.O. How soon he forgets. Well, Mr. White, I did an awful lot more than that. But I want everyone to notice what is going on here. Even if the emphasis in v.3 falls at the end, where Jesus denounces the Jewish leaders’ hypocrisy, the beginning of the verse gives them full authority in all they teach, even if they do not live up to it. The Catholic Church recognized the canon of Scripture. Let us examine your argument analytically: Premise 2: The bible is the ONLY infallible authority on matters of faith. Second of all, he asked for examples of revelation which is binding and is found outside of Scripture. Of course. “: fit, complete, capable, sufficient, i.e., able to meet all demands; : completely outfitted, fully furnished, fully equipped, fully supplied.”. He is the author of more than twenty books, a professor and an accomplished debater. I need to cover a couple of points of old business before I move into my formal remarks. I was going to say I was going to hold his feet to the fire, but that might have bad connotations, you know, with the Inquisition, and all that. It is the assumption that underlies the position. Contributors: Joel R. Beeke Sinclair B. Ferguson W. Robert Godfrey Ray Lanning John MacArthur R. C. Sproul Derek W. H. Thomas James White. No, no, no, no. Augustine was in a hard spot, as Gerry knows. That was the case with me, because, for those who may not know my background or my story, several years ago and for several years, I believed exactly what Rev. 48f. ), one which was open and known by all, and a second, secret doctrine, known by only a few. If I make a contradiction in anything that I say, in presenting my own position, to admit or to resolve the contradiction, to recognize that since God is a God of truth and if we are all agreed that “A” can also be “not A,” the law of non-contradiction stands, that the principle of sola scriptura is either true or it is false and that God, therefore, either agrees with Mr. White or myself. It may surprise you to learn that the Catholic position allows for what we call, “the material sufficiency of Scripture.” This means that Scripture contains everything necessary for Christian teaching. Second of Four One-Minute Questions Does that mean that I don’t need fellowship? 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